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In this episode, host Lora Parent, Director of Strategic Partnerships & Research Development, welcomes Dr. Vanessa Ho and Dr. Shannon Walker for a thoughtful conversation on mentorship and collaboration in translational science. Together, they explore how mentorship shapes research careers across different stages, discuss the value of collaboration between senior and early-career researchers, and share insights on building inclusive, equity-focused research partnerships—all while highlighting how CTSC programs support researchers in growing together and moving science forward.
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Transcript
Vanessa:
I guess you never know where mentorship is going to come from. And I think there's a sort of traditional idea that mentors should be someone senior to you who you want to be like. And I've actually found that that's not often the case.
[INTRO]
From Research to Real Life, a podcast brought to you by the Clinical and Translational Science Collaborative of Northern Ohio.
Lora:
Welcome to another episode of From Research to Real Life, where we explore the partnerships behind translational science. I'm your host, Lora Parent. In today's episode, we are focusing on mentorship and collaboration. So how our researchers can grow together across their career stages, how mentorship helps improve science and research, Moving it forward. So I'm excited to welcome today Doctor Vanessa Ho. She is an acute care surgeon and vice chair of research in the Department of Surgery at MetroHealth. She's a CTSC alumna and translational science. Focus on health outcomes and engagement. We are also pleased to welcome Doctor Shannon Walker. She is a postdoctoral researcher and current T32 trainee with expertise in community, engaged population health and reproductive health. So welcome to both of you. Thank you so much for being here today.
So let's start off Vanessa. You're not only a trauma surgeon, but you've also engaged with almost every opportunity that the CTSC has to offer. So can you share a little bit about your journey from clinician to translational scientist?
Vanessa:
So my research you know, tell us all about it. And I'm a trauma surgeon. But technically what that is, is an acute care surgeon. Acute care surgeons deal with every sort of sick surgical patient in the hospital. So we do trauma emergency general surgery. So things like perforated intestines and things like that. And then we also do surgical critical care. So I'm board certified as, intensive care doc as well.
I think where this started for me is that I really enjoy doing hard things. I think hard things are the things that are really worth doing. And I chose acute care surgery because it really spans the extremes of clinical medicine, like you do surgery. And the worst surgery is like the patients who are really at high risk of dying. And those surgeries are intense. They're gross. You get covered in poop sometimes like and those surgeries are physically and and intense. But then you also do the critical care medicine, which is really sort of cognitively intense. And so I chose acute care surgery as this field that that sort of spanned the extremes of everything you can do.
That's hard. And then when I became a physician, I realized that the patients that really bothered me the most, that made me the most worried were the ones where we offered treatments. And I wasn't sure if we were. We were maybe offering to save someone's life, but at what cost? Like, are we really doing people a favor by doing really aggressive treatments?
And are we really bringing patients back to lives that are worth living? And so those questions are really what drive my my research. And I think they're really important questions. And then you have important questions and you don't know how to answer them. I think it's really important to go for out. And so that's how I ended up in the CTSC. The CTSC when I got to case, was just an incredible way to find mentors who think differently from you. And so it started from the CTSC is like a small pilot award program, like $10,000 for the core utilization grants to the code to that they had to the most recently in the ATLAS program, which is a leadership, development program. So I've loved every thing that I've done.
Lora:
Well, I'm excited to learn more about it and to hear some of those stories that have maybe inspired you to keep going. But, Shannon, I want to give an opportunity to you to welcome and hear about your research. So tell us a little bit about your research focus and how your t32 experience has maybe helped shaped some of your research and career goals?
Shannon:
Yeah, sure. So I broadly, my research is really focused on how the built in social environment, affects health outcomes, things about pregnancy, postpartum outcomes and chronic disease risk. That really started I think, being a resident of Cleveland, particularly in the neighborhoods where you see some of these, like, anchor health providing institutions. The backyard of these neighborhoods, while also they have the worst, like chronic disease outcomes, lower life expectancy than other neighborhoods that didn't have like the geographical proximity to these institutions.
And so my journey really has been going from undergrad, where I learned the words to describe what I was seeing, the vocabulary, the jargon to a master's degree where I learned how to, ask questions around that specific space. And then to my graduate and T32 experience, where I look now to go from observation to intervention. And so the T32 has really given me a lot of resources, a lot of support, and even just time protected time, which is so valuable to really dig into the meat of where my interest is.
And so right now, a lot of my focus is on, the intersection of, postpartum health and chronic disease risk and food and nutrition and how food access, nutrition access can be a modifiable risk factor. For the development of chronic disease after having adverse pregnancy outcomes. So how we can use food and nutrition to intervene on the link between gestational diabetes and type two diabetes, for example. And like I said, the T32 has been great. I really so appreciate the mentorship that I've been able to receive, the mentoring committee that I've been able to develop as part of the T32, like I said, move further into the more interventional space. So we go from observing these problems, asking questions about them, and then actually doing something that's meaningful.
Lora:
Great. Well, I also look forward to hearing more about that and some of the interactions that have maybe possibly changed trajectories at some point. So let's kind of dive into mentorship. So we'll start with, you know, what role mentorship has really played in your career and how have mentors really guided you, into your areas of research, your particular research focus, as so has there been a time, let's say, that, you were maybe starting down one path, and a mentor or somebody who you've been working alongside with has maybe suggested that you turn a corner or apply for certain funding. What kind of roles has mentorship played specifically in in both of your careers?
Vanessa:
I guess you never know where mentorship is going to come from. And I think there's a sort of traditional idea that mentors should be someone senior to you who you want to be like. And I've actually found that that's not often the case. I think I have a huge Rolodex of people that I look up to that I've met throughout my life, and all of them have changed my life. And really considerable and significant ways. And not all of them have been of that traditional mentor type. I remember actually like one very small example of, of like a nontraditional person who made a huge impact in my life was through the call to program. One of the administrators actually asked me if I was getting a degree, and I said, no, I'm not getting a degree. I have a master's in public health. It's like, I don't need like, what degree? I'm just taking some classes. And she was like, you should look at it. You're probably pretty close to it. I'm like, close to what? And she was like a PhD. So I looked at it and actually, I was pretty close. It only took a couple of extra credits because I'm someone who loves taking classes, and I learned well in a didactic setting. And so, that was a really huge trajectory change from from an unexpected place.
Lora:
Yeah. And I love what you said about we typically think of a mentor as somebody who's more senior, right? That's the traditional style. You you learn from somebody who has been in your place before. Who has this lived experience? But I agree, mentors can come in all shapes and sizes and roles, and have, whether they know it or not, influence on our lives. So talk to us about that, Shannon.
Shannon:
Yeah. So I have built, I think, a network of more of the formal mentorship that, you were just talking earlier about Vanessa. And they they are the traditional people that are more senior and to sort of help, guide the career trajectory or research progression. And then I think a specific example is my primary mentor. Currently, I have spent like all this time working up this, like, grant idea that I thought was going to be like, this hit, I was gonna need this money, and I was going to be like this stable, independent researcher. And she made like one point and it just, like, poked a hole in the whole thing. And it like, because I had been so narrowly, like focused on the little stuff, even though she's not in my field, she had this like 50,000ft view and was like, boom and like blew the lid off the thing. But from there it turned me into a whole other different research direction that I think, is more solid and actually grounded in, like the real world. And so that has been really helpful. But then also at the same time, I do like these, nontraditional mentors, peer mentors, what have you, like even other postdocs or in grad school, other grad students that have had different experiences than I have had. And it's just come you never know. Like what you'll learn from, just like a quick conversation with people. And to always have those people in your Rolodex or in like, your back pocket to kind of tap into because they may not be in the space that you're looking to go, like in the traditional mentor role. They just have a different perspective, and a different drive, a different idea that can just, I think, really help push things forward.
Lora:
So talk about how maybe these mentors, and even colleagues have maybe helped you see your work in a different light and made you reconsider. So, you know, obviously you weren't considering a program, but you decided to go that route when somebody mentioned that. What else has maybe, occurred along the way that you never thought was going to be a part of your, you know, traditional path?
Vanessa:
I mean, I don't want to knock traditional mentors, like mentorship is amazing. And the people who take the time to invest in you, make a huge difference. And I've been in your shoes and I have cried many a tear. When I thought I had liked it and then I was told that it wasn't wasn't. And I thought it was, I would say that there was a point in my residency program when I was, training, that I was told that I didn't have what it took to be a surgeon, and it was recommended that I quit, which was really hard to hear. Somebody who I is my still my mentor today, believed in me and had me apply for research funding to study something that I honestly wasn't interested in. But having the space and the funds to take time out allowed me to to get my master's in public health, which actually changed my entire life. Like, I never thought I was interested in research.
And then I realized that you could use this other part of your brain to answer these bigger questions. And I knew that I would want to do that forever.
Lora:
Yeah. Wow. That's exciting. And, now that you're a surgeon. I need to know from my own personal, you know, inquiry.
Vanessa:
He is retired now. But I recently and in the last few years was able to write, a support letter for him to become inducted into the American College of Surgeons like League of Master Surgeons or something. And it was really it was sort of this culmination of my belief and and his mentoring abilities.
Lora:
That's wonderful. That's a full circle.
Vanessa:
Yeah, it really is.
Lora:
So along the same lines, full circle moments, maybe. What's the most valuable lesson that either of you have learned from collaborating or mentorship? And how do maybe some of these, you know, tidbits, these these nuggets, these phrases that, that come to us differ depending on where you are in your career stage and what you're doing?
Shannon:
Yeah, I think for me, working with collaborators has been really important. And it's interesting when I think about when I first started as a postdoc to now, I applied for the CTSC pilot award. I didn't get it. I'm not bitter about it. It's fine. But I, am applying for a similar funding opportunity now. And it's not just like a growth in, like, progression of writing or whatever. It's the way that I approach collaborating. I think early on I was so intent on feeling like I had to do so much on my own and didn't feel like I wanted to bother my mentors or collaborate on my call.
They're busy. They I don't want to, I can, I can figure this out myself. Whereas now I think I'm much more intentional about how I rely on my collaborators and their expertise and trust in their experience and not feel like I'm pestering somebody, right, for just coming in with like, rough draft right after after after I had to get, advice on and then also leaning on people in like more informal ways to be like, can I run something by you? Come. Can you come sit with me and make sure that what I'm saying is actually what I'm intending to say? So, yeah, just being intentional and trusting that your collaborators are there for a reason. It's like not bothering them for you to rely on what they have expertise in. Yeah, and we've heard that from other investigators as well, is in the beginning, they kind of felt like I need to do everything on my own to prove myself, to earn my, you know, badges in my, you know, clout, right within, within their circles.
Lora:
But it's about the collaboration that, you know, ultimately could either spur something new or give you kind of the, holistic view that maybe you were, know, to focus on one part and you miss the other, in that sense. So do you have anything to respond to that?
Shannon:
One thing I found is that collaborators always and yeah, in some way, even in error, especially if they disagree with you, they don't see your point of view. Sometimes it's because you're not expressing it in the way that you need to to get people on your side, which is something you have to do to write a grant. And sometimes it's just bringing a new perspective that is is incredibly valuable that you want to incorporate. And along with that, I think something really important is, is figuring out the balance when you're working with other people of. like, not ever taking something personally because the fact that someone spending time with you on something means that they care about you and they spent like their most limited resource resource, which is their time, you know, on trying to help you.
Vanessa:
Right. And so in good faith, you have to understand that, like, what is it that I have to learn and there's always something to learn.
Lora:
So talk a little bit about how community partners play a role in this as well. So you know this is also a critical piece. We work with our community partners. You both are very heavily engaged in the community. How does that impact your work. And and they as a collaborator impact what you're doing.
Shannon:
Yeah. So for me and I think of a project specifically, that I'm trying to wrap up now community partners served as, really influential pieces for the research development process and even in the dissemination. And so we included them in like the research design. And they are coauthors on the manuscript that came from that project. through my research, I'm a big advocate of code developing interventions, co-design with the intended end users, which is the community in a lot of respects. From a scientific perspective, I think it increases the uptake of a lot of interventions, a lot of programing, but also it just makes the work better. Because they bring their lived experience, especially working in social and behavioral work, that is really crucial when you think about identifying what problems are and how you want to intervene on them. we best service community when we engage them throughout all process of the research design. And I think that makes a better end product of the research.
Vanessa:
I like to think of as like a little trifecta. We're there because my work is health focused. I usually rely on my a clinician partner to talk about the body systems and all the stuff that is not in my wheelhouse. And then the community, brings their perspectives. They identify the problems and things of that nature. And then my job, my role is to kind of marry the two together in a way that makes sense from a scientific perspective. Or that makes sense in the context of what data we have available to us. Yeah. To really push forward, a solution to the problem that community identifies.
Lora:
Yeah. You're bridging the gap. Yes. That's great. And that's needed. You know, I think that's valuable. To help kind of, break down kind of maybe institutional barriers, that we sometimes see or, building trust. I mean, trust is key. And we hear that a lot within our community partners when we're collaborating with them, about how much they want to be heard, feel like they have a presence in the room and, and giving them a space to feel like they have a voice in their their voice matters. I think is that key to successful research, In a nutshell.
Shannon:
I agree with everything that you said about the value.
Vanessa:
The work that I do with community partners is, largely focused around, trying to eliminate gun violence and the harms that it causes in our communities. I work on that project with my research partner, Sarah Sweeney, who's a family physician, and together, she and I have developed this really close, strong collaboration with her, with a group of community partners. One of the things that really strikes me when we meet is that we always start with a check in, like, how are people doing? And guns are ever present in the lives of our community partners in ways that it's hard to imagine. Like there's never a meeting that we have where there wasn't some sort of incident in the community. So we celebrate small wins together. We mourn losses together. And it really drives the work that we do. And what it did for me was it really opened my eyes. Because I'm relatively new to working with community partners, it really opened my eyes to thinking where we're going from, like, what can we do better in the hospital to like, what can we do better for our community? Because we can sew bullet wounds and put patients back into the community where we're the conditions are the same as when they came to us. So, like, what can we do to really stop this from happening in the future? And our community partners actually have a much broader vision of change than, than I do as a physician. And it's really changed the work. Like dramatically to be much more meaningful.
Lora:
Yeah. So guns, I think, are, a controversial topic. To some people in our society, I think in general. And so can we talk a little bit about how maybe when we have controversial topics or we have controversial ideas, we think that there's a difference in how researchers, clinicians, any of your collaborators approach things like controversial topics or changes to how you research based on what you're hearing anecdotally or experiencing directly? In your fields of research and experience?
Vanessa:
So I think guns are a controversial topic, but I think there are aspects of it and aspects of the work that don't have to be controversial. So in America today, guns are the number one killer of kids. Kids should not die from guns. And I think that's something we can all agree on. We shouldn't be losing lives to guns in general, and I think that's also something that we can agree on. How to stop that from happening, I think is is where the controversy is. But that we should be doing it. It shouldn't be a controversy. And I think that finding that sort of common ground is where the work is.
You know, one of the people we work closely with is a woman named Michaela Watkins, who was the executive director of the Cleveland Peacemakers. Our community violence intervention group. And she, recently started working for the county and the Office of Violence Prevention, which is a new office. And she's the first person ever in this job. She was talking about how she recently. But like an entire stockpile of gun shaped toys, like lighters from a hair salon, to get them off the streets because it's dangerous for people to hold something that looks like a gun.
Lora:
Yeah.
Vanessa:
And she bought them for the store owner so that the store owner got the money for it, and she had the store owner agreed not to purchase any more so that she wouldn't sell it anymore. And that's like a huge win for the community. So that example, I think, shows the sort of win win of even small things that even limited resources can help you do. And I think we look for all sorts of ways to solve problems. And even if we can save up one life, I think it's worthwhile.
Lora:
Before you wrap up, I want to give each of you a chance to reflect on the importance of mentorship and collaboration in shaping where you are today. And where you hope your work will go in the future. So, Vanessa, let's start with you. Where do you hope your your mentorship or your research legacy will go? And what does that maybe look like for you five to 10 to 20 years in the future?
Vanessa:
I think one of the things we haven't had a lot of chance to talk about is, us mentoring other people. So one of the things that I've been doing for the last year, you know, ever since I became a, faculty member, is I've been mentoring other people to do research as well. And what I found is that bringing younger people with new ideas, new methods that I haven't heard of, like, and enthusiasm has really broadened our ability to study more things and in different ways. And so, I think that that's, hopefully going to be, this legacy and that not only includes people like medical students and residents, but also our community partners who are learning to do research. And we're all learning to communicate in those ways.
Lora:
And hopefully, that'll just spread. Yeah. It's great. And, Shannon, what about you? Do you have, some hopes and dreams? I mean, you're still kind of in the trenches, you know, in your training program. You are, doing the hard work. Let's say you're laying the foundation as we speak. So what are you hoping to see come out of your research? And, also spark maybe new ideas for potential collaboration.
Shannon:
Yeah. So I hope to continue to collaborate with the clinicians, with community partners. I think being here at the Midtown Collaboration Center really is like a hotbed for that, especially with the new, projects like birthing beautiful communities, being getting there. Brick and mortar birthing center that's opening across the street. Being in this space I think is really nice. And my hope is that it continues to develop, organic connections with people that lead to fruitful collaborations. And it doesn't have to result in an end product necessarily. The collaboration, the fruitfulness could just be the conversations and the, exchange of ideas.
And so I hope that leads me to the next stage of my work, which, knock on wood, hopefully would be like a, faculty position. So I'm able to not just facilitate these connections for myself, but also steward them for the next generation of people that are coming into this field.
Lora:
Yeah. That's great. So what advice do either of you have for an investigator starting out early in their career? Maybe unsure of where to look for a mentor? Unsure where to look for a collaborator? What advice could you give?
Vanessa:
What I have found to be really successful is to just be a face in the room. I think people remember when you show up, especially without an ask. And they know that you could possibly be somebody to rely on. It gets your name out there and connections that way.
Shannon:
I'm also a big believer in a cold email. I love a cold email. My, one of my current mentors, Doctor Goji, she's the medical director, for the Center of Infinite Maternal Health at the Cleveland Clinic. I had no connections to her prior to seeing, articles come out about her, and I just on a whim. I'm like a random Wednesday. I'm really interested in your work. Can we talk about what it is that you do? And then from that, were able to develop a collaborative relationship. And I think senior investigators especially love being on the receiving end of those emails and being able to talk about their work. So to leverage that in all respects, because it could potentially lead to, good working relationships, get mentorship that way or good collaboration. And don't be afraid of the no. Yes, because she could have told me no, but it and then it was a it's funny. We found out after we started working together that one of her mentors was my mentor when I was doing my PhD. So we of we joke that we come from like a mentored family. But it's just things that you find out just from having open conversations with people.
Lora:
Yeah. That's great. Yeah. Don't be afraid to send the emails. Send the emails. Don't be afraid of rejection. Sometimes people just don't have the bandwidth. It's nothing personal that's happened to, but yeah, you never know who knows who. And that kind of spins the conversation and future hopeful collaborations. Yeah. So what's your advice, Vanessa?
Vanessa:
I want to have this thing that you should be shooting for 100 rejections a year. Okay, well, that's a lot. Because, you know, the more At-Bats you have, the more chances you have to hit something. And if you don't step up to the plate, you're never going to hit a ball. And I am not a sports person, so I just I just use a sports metaphor. But but seriously, I think that.
Lora:
It doesn't hurt to try.
Vanessa:
I think it's also important to add the caveat, that is, it is important to do that on your own space and time on a timeline that makes sense for you. Because you don't want to go so hard, so fast that you lose that drive. Yeah. So, so slow and steady is really important. And also making sure that you. Live within your principles. So, so even if you have to say no to something, that might be a good opportunity for you. If it, if it doesn't align with what you feel is right, it will eat away at you. So I would say that, you know, don't give up and believe in yourself, okay.
Lora:
Yeah. So I want to take a second. And this kind of sparked an additional question is, you know, you talked earlier about this person, who said maybe you shouldn't be a surgeon. And I'm sure there's probably been a time, Shannon, where somebody has said no or this isn't a good idea, whether it be a mentor or, a collaborator. What does that do to you? You know, when we hear. No. But, you know, you're saying stay true to yourself. But you also now have somebody who maybe has more lived experience than you telling you, maybe this isn't a great idea. How do you balance the two?
Vanessa:
I think for me, getting through that moment was really difficult because I was a trainee and it was a sort of moment where I thought, wow, this person knows more than I do. But what they didn't know was me.
And so I think for me now, knowing myself better than I did then, I really do like proving people wrong. And so that might have been the best thing to say to get me to kick it up a notch. Yeah. And so and so for me, it really lit a fire under my chair to, to really succeed. Wow. That's great. And you have now. Yeah. I'm not done yet. You're still going? Yes. It hasn't stopped you, which is great.
Shannon:
Yeah. Similarly, I, I this is not me being my best self, but I find spite to be a really good motivator. And so in instances where I former mentors or collaborators have, like, doubted my ability to do something. And I'm okay with being wrong, but I believe in myself enough to know that this is what I want to do, and I'm going to get to the end of it. And so it is a balance because like I said, I'm okay with an idea not panning out based on someone's expertise. If anything, tell me how I can make it better.
Lora:
Right.
Shannon:
But in moments where the vibes are not the best with the relationship with the mentor, and there's, they doubt your ability. That's always been something that, like, turns the fire up. And really, because if you're doubting my ability, then maybe I'm not presenting myself to you in the way that I see myself. And how can I better make that connection? So you know that I'm serious about my end goals in this.
Lora:
Yeah, well, you both have given some really great nuggets of wisdom.
You know, I feel more self-confident leaving this conversation, just by kind of hearing your experiences. I mean, this is so valuable, to hear, you know, I'm going to do it. I'm going to succeed.
Lora:
And I almost set this up, even better than, you know, some of the resources that we have available to us. Right. But, I do want to appreciate and thank you both for your honest conversation. I feel like this has been really lovely. Your insights just showcase, you know, the impact that mentorship and collaboration have had.
I expect to see much more from both of you. From this. Not just from the CTSC, but, you know, in the community, in surrounding areas. And so I think the future of research is good if we've got people like you involved in it. So, for our listeners, if you are interested in engaging with the CTSC and our training program. So for example, at T32, we also have K we are recruiting for ATLAS cohort three. We have lots of opportunities for training. We have opportunities for funding. Visit us online. Be sure to share this episode with your friends, your collaborators, and join us next time as we continue exploring research and the people who are moving science and research forward.
So thank you so much and we'll see you next time on from research to real life.